Speaker 1 (00:03):
Telling it like it is bringing the community together and working for justice. Attorney Travis McConnell talks politics, trending news, and how you can make a difference. You’re listening to We Trust Travis.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hi everyone. I’m Sarina Fazan. I’m a journalist, host, and producer. Thank you for joining us for this episode of the We Trust Travis podcast. Travis McConnell is a personal injury attorney with a huge passion for the community, and he has a lot of insight to share. So let’s get to it. Hi Travis. It’s good to see you again. Good to see you too. Now tell us about this case that we’re talking about.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yeah. So today we’ve got Gary Hickson Jr. He was involved in a case. I want to say, thanks for coming down. Gary used to work over at Port Hendry was smashed by a steel plate while working as a metal worker and a welder.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I can’t even imagine. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Let’s just kind of fill it in as that he was actually running the plasma table was his main job. Yeah, I was, I ran the plasma table, but when they needed extra fitters or taggers or welders, they’d call me in.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
So, so Gary, let’s go back just a bit and explain exactly your job to us for those people who may not know this industry. And also when did this occur?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Well it occurred back in November of 2015 and I was well, I just weld and put put stuff together.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
No, it’s okay. Hey, we are on a podcast. That’s what the podcast are the best
Speaker 3 (01:38):
I put. I fit all the steel together. Once we get a cut-out and we repair vessels and fixed them and I ran a plasma table most of the time, but what is the plasma table? The plasma table is a machine that you just program what you want to cut into a steel plate. We’d get a 10 by 40 foot steel plate. And you just put in the program, what you want, cut, what parts you want cut for that boat? And it just puts starting. It just cuts the whole plate.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Wow. So your boss at the time, and this occurred in Tampa, Florida in Tampa, Florida. So you’re right over the port of Tampa because you have listeners throughout the country. So I just wanted to give them, you know, an idea of what city this is happening in. So then your boss asks you to do something.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Yeah. I worked the plasma table. They come over to me. They had a, a barge that was like a rush job and needed to get done, like right away. So they had asked me to go down there and there was like probably like 15 different plates on the bottom of this barge getting welded up. And I was tasked with going under there and helping fit some of
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Wow. Okay. And so, but they asked you to actually lay on it or what did they, what did they ask you to do?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
They asked us to go in and put a plates up to the bottom of the barge. We did a bunch of little ones. And the one I was working on was a 16 by two foot long doubler, just to the bottom of the barge. Cover up a couple of holes that were in it. And we got up underneath there and was fitting it up in there with just so you guys know this it’s amazing, the work that had to be done. So this is on a dry dock. So they lift the boat up, drain out all the water. And you’re talking about like four foot of space, basically. The is walking around three foot with the sand bag on top of it. Sometimes there’s wood, just depending on what gets put on top of the smaller patches. They’re like one by one, you just hold them up with a hand and well-done, but like this one, obviously there’s a right way to do it.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
And then there was the way that they did it. Yes, we, it was a rush job. It was something that needed to be done right then and there so that they could drop it back into water and get it back to the customer. And we were fitting to plate up to the bottom of the barge. The painting company at the time was actually smacking the side of the plate to get it up inside the dogs. Dogs are little Tetris pieces, as Travis explained holding the plate up. And then once you get it in place, you can put legends in at which pushes it tight. So then, and then when we got to we slid it in the first set of dogs, we got plate slid in the first set of dogs. We got to the second set of dogs and they were too close together. So the guy who was actually helping me push the bow out of it, had to get, had to go out from underneath it. They sat in on a four by four and I’d relaxing just for a split second. And when he, the guy on the machine shifted off the end of the plate, the whole plate came down right on top of me.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Oh my gosh. Okay. So, and then
Speaker 3 (05:16):
When it hit me, it buckled up and then came back down again a second time.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Gary, do you remember when that plate fell? Do you remember what was going through your head at the time?
Speaker 3 (05:28):
And a lot of pain, a lot of pain. And so it actually ended up fracturing my back in three different places and crushing mile five. You’re
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Lucky to be here then. Yeah. Very lucky to
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Be here. I wasn’t walking for a long time.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
So Travis, now let’s go to you. When, when they asked, when the company asked Gary to take this step at this moment, the red flag goes up. Yes.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
And this is not the appropriate way that you’re supposed to do this. They, they should have acted out, set it down,
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Fix the dogs and done at the appropriate way. So dogs are like little Tetris piece that looks like a little over and down. So you put one side on the bottom of the barge and then you slide the plate in between two of them. So that one, that if they’re too close, they should have set the plate down on the dock and they should have fixed the dogs. And then on the right where you’re supposed to slide it through there and hook on with winches or chain somehow to pull it through is when you have the dogs, then it can’t fall on people like it fell on Gary. It’s the whole point of having them. And then the winches or the wedges that he was talking about, that’s what puts it up tight. So you can actually weld it because such it’s such a big plate. You need to be able to actually, you can’t hold it with just your hands. So I mean, this, the steel plate was probably like 400 pounds or something.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
So almost 600 pounds. It was 585 pounds.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. So how
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Often from four feet on top of me on my back bent over at that, cause you’re already been Dover. I’m not short.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Well, part of the problem is with the little bit of physics is with it being bent up. There’s like built up energy with the band. And so the recoil is actually even stronger than it would just be falling down. We had an engineer on the case that ended up assisting throughout them, the legal process, explaining how things went through and all that sort of stuff and the way it should have been done and the forces involved.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Well, some people are listening to this podcast and some people are watching it, you know, on YouTube. And it is incredible Gary to see you sitting here today, after hearing about this horrific incident that occurred, how did the two of you then get connected? How did you learn about it?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
It was weird cause I’d actually tried getting a hold of another law firm at first. And they told me they wouldn’t, they didn’t want to touch it. It was a federal case because longshoreman’s a federal workman’s comp. So my mom, my stepmother, she actually got his number from her friend, which he knows who she is. I don’t know exactly, but we got his number. We called him up. He actually flew down the next day from Indiana and then came flip-flops and came, sat on the couch and sat there and talked to me.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
How long after the incident did you get in touch?
Speaker 3 (08:24):
It was about, I think you were still in the hospital. No, it was, I just got home from the hospital. I had just got home from the hospital. They had released me. I was in hospital for like a week and a half. And then after that I had went home and trying to get back into the swing of things, trying to be able to get around the house. It just wasn’t working and knew it was going to be long-term and we ended up calling him that’s when we got ahold
Speaker 4 (08:56):
Of him. So,
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So Travis, tell us, firstly, what Gary said about, it’s interesting that when you call the first attorney and they said they could not touch the case because of the federal connection. Could you explain that? I mean, why would they say something like that?
Speaker 4 (09:11):
So it’s probably just an area. They don’t want to handle in different areas of different areas that they will take. And there’s different types of lawyers, even though when you pass the bar, theoretically, you can do pretty much any sort of law, a lawyer specialize in certain areas, or they have focuses that they focus on. So I think the first lawyer was probably like a state workers’ compensation, lawyer of state of Florida. But state of Florida workers’ comp is not what would apply on this case since it happened actually on a dry dock. It’s the long shore Harbor workers compensation, which is a federal law. It’s a separate law. It’s actually, they got their own set of laws. Good for Gary. It’s a slightly better law than the federal workers’ compensation law. That there’s a slightly enhanced benefits. They both have ups and downs, but yeah, so there’s, there’s different laws for different types of accidents. When you’re hurt on the job, basically you have to go through worker’s comp, but in this particular job, you have to go through long short.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Got it. Okay. So an attorney’s hopefully would help you figure out which Avenue that you need to take that’s best for your case. So you get the case through and it’s, we always talk about it’s who, you know, it’s referrals and clearly what a great decision for you to get Travis. Right?
Speaker 4 (10:27):
You answered the phone. Anytime I called him, put it that way. I’ve called him a lot. That’s
Speaker 2 (10:32):
That’s why we trust Travis. Right?
Speaker 4 (10:34):
He still calls me then what going on three years now. Wow. And I still call him
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Well, okay. So, which is great. And that’s the type of relationship, you know, because this is an ongoing thing. This is affected your entire life. And I want to talk about the prognosis shortly, but going back to the case. So Travis, you get the phone call. You’re in Indiana at this point. Why did you one, what compelled you to get on that plane the very next day and fly down here.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
I used to always make a point that meet with clients early. Face-To-Face it’s important to me to actually meet them face to face, get to know them, let them know I’m here for them. Give them my cell phone. That’s what clients want. That’s what they expect. I think there’s some firms that don’t do that, but that’s what, that’s how we handle it.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
So what were you thinking? Which again makes you trustworthy, right. And someone that you want to work with. So what were you thinking when you heard about the case and what was the immediate first steps you took?
Speaker 4 (11:34):
The first step was to make sure and get him to a good doctor. That’s gonna take care of him. So with long shore worker’s compensation, you actually get to choose the doctors that you go to state Florida workers’ comp the carrier, the insurance carrier gets to pick the doctors long, short. Sometimes we’ll choose doctors or they’ll suggest doctors to go to, but it’s actually the worker’s right to choose which doctor they go to. So the first thing that we immediately thought of was like, I need to find out where he’s going and make sure they’re sending them to a doctor. That’s clearly biased on their side, ended up going to another doctor. And because this doctor wasn’t doing what they’re supposed to be doing in our first place. So that was, that was the business model is to make sure you’ve got good medical treatment.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
And at this point, as Gary had mentioned, he had his back was fractured in three places. Did you say it was three places? So three places, his back is fractured. I’m sure.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Older leg, knee, the knee, never did you ever the knee, I needed a surgery. They still they’ve still to this day, won’t touch it because of the RSD and my foot. Oh, bless your heart. Which that was the real, as bad as all the fractures and the multiple surgeries, you had six or seven or eight surgeries all together, surgical procedures, the
Speaker 2 (12:46):
RSD is in case they don’t reflex
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Sympathetic dystrophy and you got it’s, it’s what it can pretty much happen anywhere. And the bad thing about it is that it could be in this leg now. And then another couple of years I could have it in this foot and it’s just a mine. They said, I feel it was cause I was actually talking about amputation. And so just so I could get back on my feet and I was just tired. And so, but the doctors, I actually went through all the steps to get it amputated in the last doctor to sign off on it. He’s like, well, let’s see where we’re at in a couple years, because he goes with it being not from a foot injury and you go to being from your back, he says, I can cut it off. And the next thing you know, we’re going to be cutting the other leave off too. So he didn’t want to touch it. He wanted to wait a couple years and kind of glad we did
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Scary though. That is so scary that that injury was also a direct result of that condition. And you could have lost not one, you know, foot, but the other one as well. So, so going back to you, Travis, so you said the first thing you need to, you needed to get Gary evaluated by a great doctor, right? So that happens. And then how do you tackle the case?
Speaker 4 (14:07):
Well, I mean, we started to investigate who else is involved, the different players. So there’s the, the long shore Harbor worker and his employer. But then we started looking at well, who are the other people that were involved? Potentially. We ended up talking about the painting company. We ended up talking about other contractors that were out there and we realized that it’s not just a longshore Harbor worker case, but there are actually other people who are at fault for this happening. And so then they’re liable in tort or negligence theory in, in court, outside of the workers’ comp. So workers’ comp is sticking care of things, but then we’re also proceeding against these liable parties and we file a lawsuit pretty shortly, I think. So.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
So when you filed the lawsuit how long did it from the moment you filed? Were there a lot of challenges to the lawsuit? That was probably the biggest challenge. Explain that, explain that.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Well, I mean, there was a lot of times where I literally wanted to give up and he pretty much talked me out of it. And I mean, even on the day of a settling with the company, I was still bounded determined. I didn’t want to do this, but he kept talking me through it.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
No, Gary, why did, why did you want to give up? Was it just the emotional stress
Speaker 3 (15:28):
You got to go? I mean, I’ve always taken care of myself, always done everything myself. And then when you have to have somebody bathe you and you know, pretty much do all the things that you do every day for you even going to the bathroom, you know, you got your son help and you, you know, it’s just, it’s embarrassing for a grown man to go through.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
So you going through all this emotional and stuff? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
It wasn’t just a pain and stuff that I was dealing with to solve the emotion. All that goes along with it. You know, not knowing if I’m ever going to walk again, if I’m going to have to lay in this bed for the rest of my life, there’s several times I wanted to give up.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
And so Travis takes on the extra role, which he is very happy to do
Speaker 3 (16:19):
For me two o’clock in the morning.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
So he becomes therapist as well, lawyer in therapist. And I say that in the most wonderful way, saying that he’s willing, you know, that, that this is what you want in an attorney as well, right?
Speaker 4 (16:32):
I mean, there’s the old attorney and counselor at law and they don’t necessarily mean counselor in the way of a therapist, but sometimes that’s the way it works out, especially with personal injury clients that there’s their pain and the physical suffering that they’re going through. But there’s so much of the emotional that happens with chronic pain, especially to the level that his was with RSD. I mean, it’s basically extreme pain, this disproportionate and like a wind would blow across his foot. And he would feel like somebody stabbing knives in his foot sort of thing, fire couldn’t wear socks that sort of thing. And that just wears on you. But then I think the big thing too, especially with anybody I think is just the loss of your job, the loss of the ability to provide for your family. Like you just feel like I’ve gone from being a provider to now. I’m not able to do that. And it’s such a huge, emotional toll that it plays on people.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Have you, do you find that a lot then? Not just with Gary’s case, but in personal injury cases that this is something that you see a lot.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Yeah, it is. And then I’m even to a lesser degree, just the impact that people in car crashes, which is a lot of cases is the loss of their car. It’s like, you, you don’t realize how much you’re dependent upon your vehicle. Like you need your car to get to work. You need your car to do this. And even the people just losing their car is so hard on them emotionally. I can destroy their lives in a way, but then you take that and then you add on top of it, all the injuries and everything else too, on their severe injury case where you’re not able to work and end up dragging out without much, you know you have no revenue coming in a lot of the time. So, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
So, I mean, there’s so many layers back to Gary’s case though. So when you, when you take it on and you file the lawsuit how long did it take to finally get to resolution? And, and was it like, was it one of those situations where you’re taking on the big guys?
Speaker 4 (18:24):
Yeah, I mean, so that’s typically the way that it goes with personal injury is you’re taking on the big guys. It’s not usually, it’s not necessarily about the defendant. On the other side of the case, the people that you’re suing, it’s usually their insurance company and the insurance companies are all for the most part, large multi-million dollar companies, if not billion dollar companies, depending on which one you’re talking about. So they definitely have the pockets to try and fight off people and they try to delay and denial and diminish how much they have to pay. So it’s always kind of a David and Goliath sort of fight the, how long it took. I think it was around a couple of years, maybe just shy of two years when this happened in 2015, I think it went to at least 17 or 18, late 18, so a little over 18.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Wow. So for all those years, you’re waiting, going back and forth, back and forth. And as you mentioned, oftentimes it can be a David and Goliath situation. So as an attorney, how do you fight those kinds of cases? You just plug away, you put in your own research, you talk about it, Travis, how do you do it?
Speaker 4 (19:25):
You have to outwork. The other side basically is the way that you do it. So when you’re on the plaintiff’s side of things, you have to do your diligence. You have to work and outwork the other side because they have the advantage and you have to, you have to get out front and stay out front and, you know, hope, run like hell and hope they don’t catch up sort of thing. So it also involves investing time and research, not just time but resources. I mean, we, we hired an engineer personal injury firms, my firm and others we’ll invest our money to obtain the resources that we need to fight the cases for you as well. There were, I think a half a dozen different depositions that we had to take around $200 a pop or more for paying the court reporter fees, transcript fees, all those sorts of things.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
So typically on a case where you’re getting closer to trial, you may end up spending 10 to $20,000 just working the case up on behalf of a client in what’s called legal costs, as opposed to lawyer fees. And so that’s, you know, paying the people that need to be paid in order to prevail on a case to court reporters, the filing fee in Florida is $400 in Indiana. It’s $200 to pay engineers expert witnesses, to pay doctors to testify who can charging pretty high hourly rates to do that because they don’t like to testify. They’d rather just treat. So
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Let me ask you this. Here’s Gary though, and for other clients as well in a position where he loses his job, he’s worried he can’t eat. You may never be able to walk again. Oh my goodness. And also fearing amputation. So money to him, he doesn’t. So do lawyers take on those costs?
Speaker 4 (21:06):
The wa the good thing on Gary’s case was since he had the longshore workers’ compensation act, workers’ comp actually pays you your time out of work as a benefit of workers’ comp. When you don’t just, if you have a regular car crash, you’re not going to get that necessarily. Except in Florida, we have personal injury protection where the first 10,000 you can make a wage claim for some of that. But a lot of it usually goes to the doctors, if not all of it, because they can also claim it. But when you’re hurt on the job, they have to pay a percentage of your wage loss through the, through the workers’ comp or the long shore Harbor. And so he was actually getting some wage coming in while the lawsuit was going on. But it’s not the same as what you make. So there’s still a shortfall and it’s tough, and you’re not allowed to advance those actual direct losses to your client. You used to be able to, and then they changed the ethical rules where lawyers can not directly give their clients money. It’d be considered a gift and it’s inappropriate.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
So you could not give him anything, or you can’t give him
Speaker 4 (22:03):
Not advanced cost for living expenses. It’s not allowed under the professional rules of conduct. So what does happen sometimes on cases? I don’t remember if we had to do this on his case or not, but there are companies that will offer a settlement advances. It’s kind of a long kind of, not because it’s usually a much higher interest rate than a normal loan, because they’re, non-recourse meaning if you don’t win the case, the client doesn’t have to pay it back, which allows them to charge a higher interest rate. And it’s basically contingent upon the case. And then they get paid. They have to be paid off when the case is worked out at the end. And that’s something that some clients will do because they just, they need the money. We, I always try and recommend clients. Don’t do it unless you absolutely have to, because the interest rate is so high. But for some people they have no choice and they need to do that. Remember we have to do that on the edge and do it.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Okay. And how high could the interest rate be? Like, are we talking like 19, 20%?
Speaker 4 (22:55):
I think I borrowed like 15 and had to pay 20 bucks. So that’s not terrible. Yeah. I have one right now that I inherited from a different attorney that was on it in the beginning. And I think the client borrowed $3,000 and then the payoff is like 15,000.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Wow. That’s ridiculous. Isn’t it? That’s crazy, right?
Speaker 4 (23:17):
Yeah. That has lagged over several years in their defense, but yeah. Okay.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
But back to when you had to hire engineers, doctors, et cetera, is Gary paying for that or do the attorneys pay for that
Speaker 4 (23:29):
We’re allowed to advance those costs or you’re allowed to advance the costs of the litigation? So those are costs that the lawyers are able to advance and typically pushed onto firms to mine, almost always does on our personal injury cases. There’s very few times that we wouldn’t, we might ask a client to put a little bit of skin in the if we think there’s, you know, something going on where it, maybe they’re just trying to exaggerate a little or something like that, make sure that they’re really taking it seriously. But so legal costs you’re allowed to advance, but you can’t advance costs of for everyday ordinary living expenses.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Sure. So if for other clients out there, that’s a very important question, though, correct? To ask an attorney,
Speaker 4 (24:09):
You had to make sure that they will advance the cost because there’s, there’s some lawyers that don’t, so yeah. Make sure I’m asking the person that you’re interviewing. One, if they’re a lawyer and two, what, what’s their fee and what do they cover costs? What’s their policy about costs. And then some lawyers to defer on policies about costs. Most actually, I don’t know, my office won’t seek to collect cost if we lose a case. Some, some, some lawyers may. So you want to make sure, like, if you don’t win the case, are you going to come after me for those costs?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
So that’s another very important question to ask, though, right off the bat, I would ask that you guys, you should ask that. So Gary, your case is over settled, but you still do feel that connection to Travis and, and, and you call him and you talk to him just as we close out this podcast. Tell me how important, how important is it for you personally, that, that to pick the right attorney to handle?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Yes, it was everything. I don’t, I mean, he’d become my friend, family, you know, he’s dead just as very important to get somebody that’s going to be there. And you’re not just another case to them.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
And what is your prognosis? You’re doing well,
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I’m doing real well. I’m doing real though.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
Last time I saw him, he was on crutches. Wow.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
I was only, still, only on one leg, but I’m up running around now, running around the woods, but you still have your RSD. You guys still have the RSD. I still have a lot of problems with my foot and a lot of problems with my back. There’s not a day that goes by. I don’t hurt, but I’ve learned to live with it and life’s good.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
And we congratulate you as well, because you are your own boss. Now you have your business. Yeah. You have your own business.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yup. I started up my own business. Actually December 1st was the first day of it, but I’ve been working for myself for the past couple months. So,
Speaker 2 (26:08):
So what is the lesson in all of this, Travis? I mean, I know we’re so sorry, Gary, that you had to go through it, but what is the lesson in all of this?
Speaker 4 (26:18):
I don’t know, persevere stick with it. There were so many calls that I got from you know, don’t give up. I mean, Gary would call and I mean, so the amputation wasn’t even so much a treatment thing or like a risk. It was something that he wanted to cut his foot off because it hurt so bad. He thought it would solve the problem.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
I literally sat in the garage of a chainsaw at one time.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
We haven’t admitted.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
It reminds me of a Grey’s anatomy episode that I just actually just watched Grey’s Anatomy. You know, that you got the idea from that Grey’s Anatomy episode where the, where the guy cuts.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Yes. That’s what I do after I’ve watched your dad day. Cause I was laid up in the bed. I got in my wheelchair and went up there and I was, I mean, I laid out the Visqueen in the garage and I was getting this all out and next thing you know, I hadn’t, the cops are coming to take me.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Oh my goodness. Oh my, I cannot believe that we, this is why I love podcasts so much in conversations, just in general, that who would have imagined that. I mentioned that I watched this Grey’s anatomy episode with a guy in his foot. And that’s where you got the idea from Shonda Rhimes is too good of a writer. All this. Well, we are glad you did
Speaker 4 (27:30):
Where your girlfriend at the time found out and called me. And then I caught something. Yeah, well we got some emergency mental health treatment at that point
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Because the show’s case,
Speaker 4 (27:41):
But I told him, I said, look, if you really want to do this, we can talk about it. Cause there actually is. So RSD has no real good treatment, but there’s been some doctors in the United Kingdom, mostly where they’ve done a therapeutic amputation where they cut the foot off in the hopes that it will stop the pain. But it’s, it’s gotta be done tricky. It’s not done the chain on your garage. It’s done with ketamine injections and drugs to make sure and block the pain and obviously in a clean, sterile environment. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Well, in the show the guy did actually get his foot off and they ended up amputating, but on an operating table, but we are glad that he did not get that far. In your case, Gary, we are so happy to see you prospering and seeing you with your business and smiling and being here today. And Travis, of course, this is why we trust Travis. Thank you so much, everyone for joining us on this trip.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
Thanks everybody. Thank you. Thank you again,
Speaker 2 (28:39):
To learn more about Travis McConnell, head to Travis MCLaw.com. Thank you for listening to We Trust Travis.
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